Is it moral to break the law?— HMRC Victim (@HMRCVictim) June 16, 2017
Is it immoral to obey the law?
Can gov punish you if you obey all laws but do something they label "immoral"?
Tax does have to be taxing.
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An organisation which cannot comply with the law itself as no right to be sitting in moral judgement over anything else. Scumbags.
ReplyDeleteTrue.
Delete12:23 is entirely correct.
ReplyDeletePart of IR/HMRC's problem has always been this notion that it is in some way an upkeeper of morals.
Perhaps, back in the dim, distant past, it was.
But now, the organisation is such a poorly managed, corrupt and hypocritcal one that it has no business calling itself any kind of moral arbiter.
None at all.
If it was, it absolutely WOULD NOT treat it's staff like it has done and happily continues to do.
HMRC sets great store on leadership. There is , however,no room for free thinking or morality. Although a lot of the staff are decent hardworking people the system doesn't allow for free speech.Narcissist middle management "talent spot" people that are arselickers and will cushion them from being found out. They will be owed for helpingetting them write their competencies....and so the rot is just perpetuated. It'seems unrecognisable from the departments pretty merger. HMRC is a disgrace. The heavily resourced spin machine keeps pedalling lies. It is tempting to hope that things can't continuse like this - but it gets worse every year. Decency punished/ nastiness rewadded. Excom are rats leaving a sinking ship. I'm afraid there are plenty more rats waiting to step into those shoes!
Delete@ 21:09 my partner used to work for hmrc so I agree with your analysis and was struck by your comment that about "decency punished/nastiness rewarded".We know first hand about their misconduct and in their desperation to cover it up there is no mercy to the amount of brutality they were prepared to inflict.If there were any justice then certain managers would be answerable to the criminal law...we know that a manager who flouted the law was allowed to retire with a taxpayer funded pension without any scrutiny..experience is they put themselves above the law. Totally immoral and (if they have a conscience) I wonder how these cowardly, sneaky, weak, pathetic losers sleep at night.... they are sad little thugs masquerading as politically correct moral judges.
Delete17 June 2017 at 18:55 - "Part of IR/HMRC's problem has always been this notion that it is in some way an upkeeper of morals" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Lol!
DeleteProblem is with the way upwards via 'competencies' is that instead of starting each day with the objective of working through your caseload as efficiently as you are able to , you have some characters ( and they are not hard to spot) who arrive thinking ' right, I need more competencies for those vacancies I might go for' and if possible mould their each day to achieve this aim.
DeleteSo instead of working they may attend a Health Awareness Yoga Class, push a trolly around flogging cakes for charity,find something to raise a 3c about or invent a non-issue to call a long meeting about.
If from this charade of time misuse they are able to weave a fable that will improve or expand their competencies, then the day has been a success without too much effort.
This has been rife for the past 10 years meaning that the rot is set in too far to be treatable.Many of those in positions of influence have climbed the ladder by this artful but legitimate method.
The worst case scenario of all for humble honest working staff is when you have a clique of these characters who as well as being crafty devils are also full scale abhorrent.
I know of a floor in a city centre HMRC building where by chance those with power and with direct daily contact with the workers were the worst of the worst. Workers were given unachievable targets, were not properly trained, the rules changed daily and were often backfitted - and when at the end of the day they hadn't achieved their goals, had to report to a senior figure and explain why.
Some were told ( illegally and incorrectly) that they may be sacked - this just to frighten them to push for that extra stat. A member of staff once got to her feet, went to the window and sobbed, some with serious illness were treated with humiliating disrespect.
Worst of all, at the end of the day the buckets of pigswill that were part of this dominion obtained varying levels of promotion. They have all now gone and I am told it is now a reasonably content floor.
There are however many bitter people who have not forgotten how they were treated for other peoples gain and if any members of this dominion meet misfortune many good decent people will see fit to gather and enjoy Vealed Sweetbread followed by Spiced Bresse Duck, Grand Marnier Souffle, and all accompanied by a few bottles of Trebbiani De Abruzzo. They can all then gleefully rise to their feet as a toast is proposed to wish the worst to the cowardly,bullying,lying,foetid termites who needlessly made their lives so unpleasant for a significant period of time.
Our current chain of command...1.psychotic uber bully...2.two faced mini bully....3.petrified manager who has no balls so then bullys the managers he has 4.our direct manager is just an imbecile who has no people skills whatsoever and should have been let go years ago.......and so the shit lands on our desks where we get the blame and are told to work out how to make things better...or we will burn in the fire of hell.
DeleteA fucking hell hole of a place.....bastards !!!
To Anonymous 19:57 .....that sounds terribly familiar. I wonder if I work with you ??
DeleteProbably not....for that is the blueprint for virtually ALL of the HMRC !!!
DeleteDamn predictive text......but you get my drift!
ReplyDeleteDon't worry...we understand...HMRC is rotten to the core !!
DeleteIs there any legislation that says HMRC is above the law of the land? NO THERE IS NOT. They should face justice. They are not a special case. There are people in management who show signs of untreatable mental disorder.
ReplyDeleteDear Mrs May,
ReplyDeleteI recognise that you have a large number of priorities at the moment, not least the Brexit process. However, when you became Prime Minister you talked about burning injustices and your apparent willingess to tackle such unfairness. HMRC is a key government department which ought to be setting an example to people. It is not. We are all the time reading of their casual incompetence, law breaking, bullying (and harm) and cover-ups which happen in the full knowledge of management and with apparent scant regard to the law. We fear they have institutionally lost the plot. They no longer understand right from wrong. They no longer have any understanding of the concept of the truth. They willingly cover up misconduct. We also read of their failures to collect the right amount from big business while many say they have an authoritarian attitude to small business. Kinder comments about them are words like clowns and incompetents, more realistic descriptions include scumbags and thugs. They treat staff (and reportedly some taxpayers) as though they are sewerage. Something has gone wrong to say the least. This is not a sustainable position for any organisation, particularly one in the public sector charging with handling the nations revenue income, and which has extensive (some say excessive) powers at its disposal. We need to be able to trust the integrity of this department. Do you agree that its time for a full investigation and public inquiry with no hiding place for any wrongdoers (including those who are now receiving generous pensions)?
Yours faithfully,
Concerned Tax Payer
HMRC = liars.
ReplyDeleteNot only liars but arselickers to anyone who can help them get on. And bullies to anyone who sees what they are doing and stands up to it. They will mob you, isolate you , call in favours from their mates to give things a veneer of impartiality. It's disgusting and the cover ups are just as bad as the original misdeed. It's corruption and it seems to go to the top.Massaging of statistics, spinning maladministration into triumphs. The little guy, whether worker or small business can't get their voice heard. Leadership has become more about bullshit and moving on after 2 or 3 years. It seems to me that all the best bits of HMC&E and Inland Revenue got lost in the deeply rotten culture that is HMRC in 2017. Still no shortage of gongs and awards so HMRC is doing exactly what the establishment want it to do!
ReplyDeleteRe: the cover ups - when management fabricate false documents to cover up breaches of law, I believe there is a word for that....
DeleteNever mind, they are above the law and only when a person (or more likely a group) with huge cojones are prepared to confront the mob through demands for an inquiry and justice, will things ever change.
I tell everyone I know to never ever ever ever trust this rotten organisation...
P.S. a group prepared to take on the HMRC culture of misconduct won't ever be PCS union. They are as useless as a chocolate fireguard, and are often mates (and/or bum kissers) of the managers running amok...
DeletePCS are part of the problem at HMRC. They are either thick or turning a blind eye as to the scale of problems within HMRC.
DeleteIt is management by fear and divide and rule. I'm only a few years off retirement. Older workers either jump ship early or tough it out.Younger workers with children/mortgages are in no position. Retention of staff may become a problem in the next few years as the race to the bottom and Regional Centres throws HMRC to the market. I agree about the effectiveness of the unions not being the answer. However, the ingrained culture of pacesetter/lean, unrealistic targets, PMR, competency based promotions which make it look like a poor man's The Apprentice. Promotions that mean signing up to worse terms & conditions.The dead hand of the Cabinet Office who in collusion with Price Waterhouse/ other consultants impose their will via poor Excom puppets.What on earth was Lin Homer good for.? It'seems depressing. Unless HMRC are exposed in the courts or through quality investigative journalism I cannot see it getting better!!
ReplyDeleteNail on the head 20.46!
ReplyDeleteAre they moral guardians? No, many of them have similar characteristics to criminal abusers. As the above commenter says they deploy tactics of divide and rule. They have hatred of anyone who has morals. Look up the word psychopaths and you will find this applies to some of the evil, violent scumbags.
ReplyDeleteHMRC - A Question of Morality - My View - Tax rates and government expenditure are a political issue which obviously have a moral element to them. The collection of tax by HMRC is not a moral issue. HMRC and their senior management allow a culture of cover-ups, dishonesty, bonuses and gongs for failure, treat staff to away days at football club, punish the honest and reward bullies. The public should always be on guard and have a healthy suspicion of HMRC in their dealings with them, and always remember how HMRC themselves behave and don't ever allow those people to claim to be morally superior to you. The culture is one of pure filth and corruption.
ReplyDeleteIf they allow criminal offence involving a manager and a third party to go un-investigated, and unpunished, then we you know this is a corrupt place with too many cowardly shit bags with too much 'power'
ReplyDelete@19.17 - I recognise this situation and you have my sympathies. IT has been shit now for many years. I went through a terrible time in 2013/14. Most of the protagonists havery moved on to bigger and better things. That says it all. There are 2 Grade 7'so who I hope to get even with some day. I still see the attached the thought of it. No internal process could get to them. I tried Freedom of Information Act/ Grievance Procedures and I now deeply regret the fact that I didn't haul their sorry arsed before the Employment Tribunal. I didn't do it owing to cost & family advice that advocated letting it go as they had moved. I am angry with myself but that pales into insignificance to what I feel should I encounter these 2 arse holes again. One of them may still go higher up the rankeys. a nastier,devious, bullying, insecure arse licker have I ever had the misfortune to come up against in 30 years of service. It is weird how anger serves as a motivator.....and I do intend to get even
ReplyDeleteNot sure if my post has been censored?
ReplyDeleteMaybe it has - and maybe as a serving officer of HMRC it is for my own good.
Suffice to say that among the working grades there is a mixed atmosphere of disillusionment, despair, anger & apathy. HMRC can have as many awards nights, Simply Thanks awards etc as it likes......it has a long way to go to come back from this.
Kudos to @ 21:45 20 June for their courage in speaking out. We live in a democracy (something that's perhaps conveniently forgotten by the senior management?) and its the duty of every public servant to speak out regarding corruption. It comes down to morals. This organisation collects public money, by the force of law, and would probably purport to be acting with integrity in the common good, and yet many victims (and other educated persons) know full well that this vicious monster has perpetrated unlawful, immoral, unethical and, yes, even violent, acts against people including their own staff....this does have knock on effects to public confidence and recruitment...somebody needs to get a grip of this situation...but in reality nothing will change.
DeleteNot censored, but was sitting in the spam tray for some reason. Have "unspammed" it.
DeletePeople now retired, enjoying their generous tax payer funded pensions for their 'service', may well have been excused by senior management for their criminal offending and inhumane treatment (clue: senior management have no right to rule on the law), but they are guilty in the eyes of the law and the public. Don't know how these lying nasty cowardly insecure individuals sleep at night knowing what they have done to people. They must be deluded or psychopaths.
ReplyDeleteThere is no smoke without fire, and you certainly don't need a degree in rocket science to work out that many laws, both civil and criminal, have been broken across the diverse activities of HMRC.
ReplyDeleteIt can be proven categorically that officialdom is aware of this up to parliamentary level.
Notwithstanding the sheer waste of public money undertaken by HMRC wrt I.T., estates, sub-contracting or useless running of e.g. HR, training or learning facilitation, vehicle fleet, shredding, post and call centre work.
The whole picture is one of wanton maladministration, collective and systemic abuse and breaking of laws.
So, to repeat the oft reaised question, why has this been allowed to continue for overe a decade?
BTW, conspiracy is defined thus..."...a secret plan made by two or more people to do something that is harmful or illegal..."
Apologies for errors, its hot!
DeleteMisconduct in Public Office contrary to common law ? In a democratic society governed by the law, the system must never allow civil servants to be above the law. People in positions of power are aware of various issues within this rotten discredit tax department - is it not time for them to step up to the plate with investigation and reform ?
ReplyDeleteJust been told that Gerry Dorby was asked, at a SLT meeting today in Hull, a series of questions from staff (AOs and Band Os).
ReplyDeleteOne was, with the digitalisation of data gathering coming into effect soon, where will this leave AOs?
His answer: they'll be farmed out to other departments.
Another question: how does he see morale and well being going in Hull as it gets closer to closing?
Answer: well, he apparently answered another question entirely, completely side stepping it, before adding "why would anyone complain, there's loads of work to do".
He then said he had "no idea" where the regional office in Leeds will be, either exact location or time wise. "I promise, as soon as I know, you will"., he said.
This is as rumours fly that Wellington Place will house the Leeds staff (and what's left of Hull;s) from 2019.
Well known that GD's betters are fed up of him. Cost of cleaning up his messes getting too high. Rumours of a sacrificial lamb (or lambs) being offered in the assistant director ranks to cover up the current shit show.
ReplyDeleteWhoever GD is he's a pawn Obeying orders. What's this really about?
ReplyDeleteThat doesn't exonerate him from his bullying ways...all the staff ask is a bit of humanity...that has long gone from HMRC management...lower grade staff are treated like scum now !! It's a fucking disgrace.
DeleteMy partner was relentlessly bullied by HMRC management. When they complained about it the bullying got worse and worse with HR and Senior Management joining in. They crush truth tellers. Even Jon Thompson was fully aware and failed to act. My partner's health, career and finances were ruined because of these thugs and was left suicidal. HMRC have no shame and saw fit to fabricate documents, smear, harass, anything to avoid accountability. Lowlife cowards.
DeleteThings need to change in that place. Starting with making HMRC comply with the law.
Reminds me of the bullying behaviour of another Assistant Director, Anthony Moss. Too many untouchables running amok in HMRC management...
Delete