The Conservative MP for Wycombe, Steve Baker, is none too impressed with the tone and "style" of HMRC's debt collection letters.He is quoted by MoneyMarketing:
"It is a hell of a tone to take. The assumption is you are a wrong 'un, so here is the full weight of the harshest letter we can send you.
We now have the state publicly backing and using scientific techniques of behavioural psychology to extract what it wants.
It is sinister.
You could dismiss it as a crazy conspiracy theory if it were not online with Cabinet Office written on it."
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All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing (look at Hitler.)
ReplyDeleteApropos of previous comments left regarding a 'doorstep template' letter, I myself have recently sent, in part, the following:
'2.8 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:-
k. Not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt.
Consequentially any threat of legal action you pursue or any threat to instruct a debt collection agency to visit my home will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.
Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.'
Sometimes you simply HAVE to give a bully a bloody nose.
Their letters DEMAND payment, DEMAND that one contacts them IMMEDIATELY, IGNORE all written entreaties and relevent information requested, when provided, REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE BY DATE all letters sent to them....so, one just has to treat like with like.
I am seriously considering suing them (or threatening them....in the same way that they threaten ME!)since it would hardly take up much more time and paperwork...and I would bill the buggers for THAT too......
6 May 2011 12:23
ReplyDeleteThe feeling is mutual. I seem to be kicking them in the teeth at least twice every week.
I am not phased by their threats in any way whatsoever. Their threats mean nothing to me. In fact, I look forward to opening their brown shitty envelopes to see what excuses they are giving me to slap them up.
They are now an organisation of tyranny and abusers of their powers. No-one respects them (not even the staff) and they have no credibility.
HMRC is in a state of dishonour and we have every right to protect ourselves from their abuse.
I am lining up a lovely case for suing them. Win or lose, I dont care. I will not be intimidated into submission of their draconian powers. I will not give them an inch. My head will be held high.
FABULOUS!!
ReplyDeleteI feel a class action brewing (and I know the very legal beagles who would do it pro-bono).
Come on then HMRC, let's see how big your cojones are (bearing in mind that bullies are inherently cowardly eejits)
Apparently (I have on good authority)they are reduced to quivering ectoplasm when confronted in court.
Aahhh, didddums.......
Anyone being supported in a Class Action might wish to canvas the staff of HMRC and make it a multi-faceted class action involving breaches of criminal and civil law.
ReplyDeleteI like the way this is gathering impetus at long last.
They are bullies and it is high time they were literally called to account over all these issues.
Not only is it a self regulating object of derision it is an absolute disgrace to the country and the taxpayers.
Looking forward with much interest, perhaps Ken & a few others might consider joining the growing throng and add their weight - the time is right brothers and sisters, truth will out!
The number of people who I meet in passing/daily life, who have PAID money to HMRC...that they DO NOT OWE OR IS IN DISPUTE,----- because the horrendous grind of daily/weekly threats via phone,text (for crissake),letter--- is too much to bear,--- is amazingly high.
ReplyDeleteThey capitulated because they simply could not take any more, their health and sanity being stretched to the limit (I wonder how many suicides?).
So the government sanctions demanding money with menaces does it?
Even MORE sinister is the fact that they HMRC, suppress negative national news coverage, i.e the press is loathe to print anything too controversial.
Talk about having everything sown up THEIR WAY, and rendering us poor proles as potent as a one legged arse kicker.
THIS IS PAYBACK.
The thought of a class action is more than interesting, it is further evidence that you can only push people so far.
ReplyDeleteWhilst I do not see this as potential for anything other than the law courts I believe that Politicians throwing their hats into the ring, whatever the motivation, is a good sign.
Elf n' safety may be just the ticket:
ReplyDelete'Under the Health and Safety Legislation. Under the HSAW Act 1974 (as amended) Employers not only have a duty to protect the Health and Safety of their workforce but also anyone not employed by them who may be affected by their activities. Bullying tactics like these threateneing letters can seriously affect elderly and infirm tax payers as well as those of a timid nature etc.'
Just as an aside, who does one actually sue?
Is it HMRC itself or their DCA's?
Who is accountable?
Protection from Harassment Act 1997
ReplyDeleteChapter 40
Clearly they are in breach of above.
Avanti......
6 May 2011 17:58, HSE are not interested in taking on other government departments.
ReplyDelete@18.15
ReplyDeleteHow very convenient.
Like JFK, I do not see things and ask: 'WHY?'
I see things and ask: 'WHY NOT!!'
Fortune favours the brave, a battle with HMRC is not for the wimpish faint -hearted.
So -collection action suspended if the debt is disputed, eh? I wonder if anyone can see what might happen if that was policy? I call for legally due debt - debtor ( note -not taxpayer -cos they aren't) says " I dispute this debt" -I give up. Not going to get much tax collected, are we peeps??
ReplyDelete@16.49
ReplyDelete"they HMRC, suppress negative national news coverage"
Cock. Unbelievable paranoid bollox.
Anyone actually read the Daily Mail recently..... I suppose this is when they aren't busy with illegal post supression schemes........
HSE usually have a problem with other governments departments because they all count as "the Crown". i.e. the Crown can't take itself to court (also part of the Crown). That is why they never got pulled up for numerous breaches of fire regulations etc. Although I thought that protection had been removed a couple of years ago.
ReplyDeleteGo on then, all you internet heroes, sue HMRC with your well reasoned legal arguments, and see how much they are reduced to "quivering ectoplasm" Go on -bill them for your time, see where it gets you. Moral of this story is -Don't like the law -get it changed. Don't whinge at people acting within it.
ReplyDeleteIt states clearly on the HMRC website that you CAN bill them for telephone calls and other expenditure which you have incurred while dealing with them
Delete@19.14
ReplyDelete"Although I thought that protection had been removed a couple of years ago".
It was.
@16:49
ReplyDelete"So the government sanctions demanding money with menaces does it"?
Ever got a speeding ticket, ever had a library book back late, ever had a parking fine - what,the government are going to demand money WITHOUT menaces? Grow up -loony.
@12:23
ReplyDelete"The feeling is mutual. I seem to be kicking them in the teeth at least twice every week".
oooooooooh. please tell us all how you are doing that then.......Not opening their letters...Posting on the internet........
I can literally smell the fear from HMRC......
19:18, you can remove all the protection you want but the HSE will not take on HMRC.
ReplyDelete@19.14.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the info bro'
I have, (for all you nay-sayers)in my possession, not only several emails from a highly respected national journalist not affiliated to the Daily Mail (who vouchsafed the fact that negative press was suppressed), but, a hilarious missive (which I think I must frame and put in its rightful place) from a poor strung out Inspector/Collector of taxes who (obviously wishing to clear my thick file from the highly polished HMRC desk), get this, TOLD ME to go to the Job Center Plus and claim benefits.
I have not as yet taken that kind advice, but it flies in the face of one governmental department not treading on the toes of others.
This really is a case of 'Carry on up the rectal passage'
Hilarious
I am at a loss to understand this thread.
ReplyDeleteHMRC will suspend collection action if you ask for tax to be postponed in respect of SA and CT. Just be prepared for interest to be added if the appeal is not successful. PAYE can not and should not be postponed as it is MY money, collected on behalf of HMRC from MY wages. It is calculated (correctly I hope) by my employer and should be paid to HMRC at the right time.
If they aren't doing that then I would hope HMRC would get nasty, it is MY money not THEIRS (my employer).
I'm not interested in having MY tax deductions prop up THEIR business
@19.53
ReplyDeleteThat is partially the point of this thread, they do NOT suspend action and illegally bombard us with threats.
They told me they would not pursue my debt (I met their criteria for not doing so) and then sprang back to life some years later.(Oh, guess what, conveniently NOT statute barred)
It is HARASSMENT, and THAT is illegaL, no matter who it is doing it.
'Don't like the law -get it changed. Don't whinge at people acting within it.' @19.16
ReplyDeleteWell HMRC got a real precedent making spanking with me....sadly, they were not keen for it to reach the broadsheets.
It was a real David and Goliath jobby.
Change of law?..MMmm, maybe not for now, but, I have seen the 'quivering (and inept) ectoplasm' up close and personal and they really are useless ocean going tools.
@ 20.08
ReplyDeleteTwaddle
Do you have the paperwork confirming that the debt is not owed? If so why not just send them a copy?
Or if it was agreed that collection would be postponed, why have you not pursued resolution in the intervening years?
You can review your affairs for the last 6 years (as well as the current year)
And so can HMRC. They have to go to court to reopen older years.
I get the impression that some of the toadies posting on here these days may be "fast trackers" or pacesetter "blinded" brown nosers spinning dissent and smoke 'n' mirrors!
ReplyDeleteThe absolute and irrefutible reality of HMRC is as seen. It is a total disgrace and is out of control whilst patently unfit for purpose with a collection of managers that shouldn't be trusted with running a WI cake stall.
Get a life you toadies, repent now afore it is too late oh ye of little faith.
In the meantime fuck off and stop wasting our time.
@20.21
ReplyDeleteI have sent all the relevant paperwork to 3/4 'Debt Management' offices spread around the country, (they tend to move it around) even though I have a letter from my 'local' DM office (who, it must be said were extremely pleasant and helpful)regarding the debt not to be pursued, then,in the last few months, the appointed D.C.A: Fairfax Solicitors (and they are NASY mothers) started off with renewed vigour, so we go, wheeeee!!....round in ever decreasing circles.
You see my dilemma
20:38, No one within HMRC will see your dilemma as they either do not care or are too busy looking after their own arses to say anything.
ReplyDelete@ 20.31
ReplyDeleteNo it's not fast trackers or pacesetter blinded toadies - management have a major part to play in the way HMRC is today but so do the staff. Their continual bleating makes me sick.
If the situation is as the poster at 20.38 states, staff dealt with his affairs PRE PACESETTER. It was either laziness or lack of ability.
You might not trust the managers to run a cake stall - I wouldn't trust the staff either!
Oooh, touched a raw nerve have we?
ReplyDeleteThe long suffering staff at HMRC are all that is holding this pile of crap together.
20:49 dickhead/dipshit obviously has never been a true civil servant, its all about service you cretin and fuck all to do with with the staff who are downtrodden and totally pissed off with crap management wasting hard earned tax payers money with no accountability whatsoever let alone the remotest sense of responsibility. How far up the pole are you dogbreath?
You can't lay the blame for this on the staff.
ReplyDeleteUnless you mean the spineless mob with their heads up management rectal passages that is.
Read and digest what the outsiders are saying if you don't believe what the poor sods inside the organisation are saying.
Take a close look at what is actually going on, the staff are not bleating they are pleading for help.
What's the difference between a B&Q lawnmower and a member of Excom? You can always take the lawnmower back if it doesn't work properly and either get your money back or change it for one that does work!
I wonder if they ever make good their threats.
ReplyDeleteAfter all, one imagines they would not want to spend money on courts or making people bankrupt, especially if the 'customer' has a written, cast iron agreement with HMRC.
I think they are idle threats best left ignored.
@22.58
ReplyDeleteAnd thats the point, isn't it.
We do make people bankrupt, we do take them to court. And they don't of course, have a written,cast iron agreement with HMRC. Except,perhaps,in their own minds.
What do YOU think we should do, with people who will NOT pay what they owe?
"What do YOU think we should do, with people who will NOT pay what they owe?"
ReplyDeletecome down on them like a ton of bricks.
But what do you think we should do with you when you fuck up?
@20:18
ReplyDelete"Well HMRC got a real precedent making spanking with me.."
This does not seem to be English as I understand it?
Possibly some kind of S&M allusion?
@23.15
ReplyDeleteI agree, we should be accountable.
But we are NOT always wrong. We are not even as wrong as some posters on here might have you believe.....
@19.48
ReplyDelete"I have, (for all you nay-sayers)in my possession, not only several emails from a highly respected national journalist not affiliated to the Daily Mail (who vouchsafed the fact that negative press was suppressed"
Erm - not much of a journalist then, is he? Wouldn't have exactly exposed Watergate, would he.......
@21.57
ReplyDeleteRead a script in Contact Centre do we?
@23.10
ReplyDelete'And they don't of course, have a written,cast iron agreement with HMRC. Except,perhaps,in their own minds.'
Well, a poster on this fine site has asserted that a written cast iron agreement is, and has for some time, been in place, and yet is still the recipient of multiple threats.
Are you calling the poster a liar?
Is that your standard flanking deployment when faced with dissension?
You'll be saying things like: 'lessons can be learned' next.....
@23.36
ReplyDeleteNoooo. Not allowed to have a go at the Contact Centre robots! They're all graduates,you know...Not really semi-literate phone monkeys!
@23:40
ReplyDelete"Are you calling the poster a liar"?
Yep.
They even get on the internet,you know....
@23.40
ReplyDelete"They told me they would not pursue my debt (I met their criteria for not doing so")
Hmm. You consider that a written,cast iron agreement,eh!
Want to buy some magic beans?
I posted at 23:15 and would like take this opportunity to reply to the reply posted @23:23.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I file my tax return online within a month or two of the tax year ending and pay all taxes due as required, I have had to contact HMRC directly on a couple of occasions over the years. Each time the issue I have called about has been made worse by misleading information given to me or sub standard IT systems. This may seem irrelevant in the grand scheme of things but to me a 100% record of making problems worse is an issue.
I also deal with the IRS across the pond and on the few occasions I have had to contact them on the telephone I have always managed to get the issue resolved within a few minutes. Yes a few minutes from picking up the telephone and hanging up.
@23.40
ReplyDelete"Is that your standard flanking deployment when faced with dissension"?
Is dissension even a word ?...
Illiteracy - the mark of a true keyboard warrior......
@23:46 & @ 23:54
ReplyDeleteAs humorous as you probably feel your posts in reality you are simply showing your arrogance.
Lets just hope you are one of the members of staff that get chopped soon and then maybe the service will start to improve.
@23.59
ReplyDelete"I also deal with the IRS across the pond "
This, presumably, is the same IRS which is universally hated and FEARED in the US.
Yeah, things are not right with HMRC. Some of us are still trying to provide a service. Caught between Daily Mail screams to reduce the public sector, and Daily Mail rants about declining service standards. Sorry. If I had dealt with you, maybe you would feel differently.
@00.05
ReplyDeleteMate, when the last staff members of my generation are chopped, things will REALLY go down the pan.
FYI, the two posts you reference were by two different people......
For the benefit of the philistine non believer: @00.03
ReplyDeleteNoun 1. dissension - disagreement among those expected to cooperate.
The perfect use of the word, when one considers how us serfs are meant/supposed to Kow-Tow in subjugation before the mighty monolith of HMRC.
Sit and oscillate Sunny Jim.
(must be chucking out time at the pub)
@00.16
ReplyDeleteIt's a fair cop. I AM quite pissed.
"This, presumably, is the same IRS which is universally hated and FEARED in the US."
ReplyDeleteNot really, that is not the impression I get from the people I deal with. I guess it could be the same as the UK. You only hear the bad stuff.
The point is that the IRS and HMRC exist for basically the same reason but the service provided is a million miles apart.
00:22, if you work for HMRC maybe you could try going to work pissed. It may not seem so bad.
ReplyDelete00.26
ReplyDeleteInteresting. Do you get the impression public servants are despised in the US?
Because they seem to be in the UK
Most obvious in treatment of their respective Armed Forces, I would say?
I used to work for HMIT.
ReplyDeleteI got sent home for wearing a T Shirt bearing the legend: 'Nigel is a Wanker'
Go figure eh?
@00.28
ReplyDeleteI do work for them,and to be honest,....nah. I think anti-depressants would be more useful......
Wow. What a long thread. Some good stuff on here.
ReplyDelete@00.26
ReplyDelete"You only hear the bad stuff".
Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you - and goodnight.
@00:41
ReplyDeleteDon't get too smug. I just checked and the website www.hmrcgotitright.com does not exists.
@00.26
ReplyDeleteI agree. In the US -Customs,IRS,Coastguard,ATF,MULTIPLE OTHER AGENCIES.They don't mind paying different departments to do different jobs.
In the UK - HMRC.
Go figure.bramin
@00.45
ReplyDeleteNeither does www.johnlewisgetsitright.com
Your point being?
@ 00:49.
ReplyDeleteThe John Lewis mission statement is: 'Never knowingly undersold'
Maybe HMRC's should deservedly be:
'Never knowingly underhand'
Yeah right......
@00:49
ReplyDeleteWe will just get into the old "I can choose not to shop at John Lewis" discussion so I shall just bid you goodnight instead.
oooooooooh. please tell us all how you are doing that then.......Not opening their letters...Posting on the internet........
ReplyDeleteI can literally smell the fear from HMRC......
6 May 2011 19:33
You sound exactly like one of the muppets who writes stupid letters to me. Yes, I do open them (with glee) and yes I do respond (with venom)
You have missed the point entirely. It's not whether HMRC are fearful - the fact is that I do not fear HMRC.
Wow, WTF is going on, 60 posts and counting, read them all now totally confused......
ReplyDeleteHMRC is an OK place to work
It answers the phones without charging extortionate rates for the privelige with an operator who is degree educated and is happy in their call centre and knows all the answers or has access to a failsafe IT system that can provide correct answers to the myriad of questions the "customers" might wish to ask,
It is top of its own survey with staff (1st of the 1)
It has a resolute approach to staff welfare and will not tolerate bullying by managers,
pacesetter has been replaced by reality (IT DOES NOT WORK OUTSIDE A MANUFACTURING ENVIRONMENT)
It does not lean on the lower paid in a financial depression whilst accommodating "arrangements" with multi-national avoiders
It does not waste billions of tax payers money on IT debacles
It is respected as a world wide standard bearer of how a public body (its not a PLC yet!) should portray itself, oh yes it has a management that knows WTF is going on, and then......yawn, stretch, fart, I wake up and nothing has changed
HMRCISSHITE despite what the fantasists may say.
5th columnists spreading lies and other untruths abound, beware the darklord Mr Frodo he has many guises!
ReplyDeletePsyops never worked that well as the truth normally surfaces pretty quickly and folks are far more savvy these days.
What these management Philistines are doing however is merely support a totally crap organisation that is so far down the path of meltdown it has reached the point of no return.
The Politicians must step in and take control split the useless monolith into 2 again and ensure the management is fit for purpose - they call the shots not the staff.
BTW keep that Class Action on the front burner, there is a long wy to go with this approach, needs some momentum....
If he is an MP in our tentatively 'elected' government then how about he actually does something like EFFING GOVERN????!! Instead he whines to a business newspaper.
ReplyDeleteAs an MP he has a right to ask his minister colleagues questions in Parliament (in this instance) and get something done about it.
You reap what you sow I suppose. Debt collection gets sold off to DCA's (PRIVATE CORPORATIONS) who are known to harass people and get their facts wrong nearly all the time yet civil servants on the floor still get the blame.
Wait until the civil service employees wakes up to the proposal to sell its pension funds off to the private sector to managemen...
ReplyDeleteThere will be murrrder (Taggert) its about the only thing left worth having even though its not the golden nest egg the press would have you believe, but the funds are worth having if you can get your hands on them - or have they already gone or been spent? Hmmm......
Something else for a class action?
I am 11:52 poster and before anyone points out the 'irony' e.g. "Well you're posting this on a message board that will help won't it?" consider the fact that this MP is NOT being paid 65K a year to whine to a newspaper/website but IS paid to GOVERN THE UNITED KINGDOM.
ReplyDeleteI am making these observations in my free time.
@12:02
ReplyDeleteThey probably are aware. Unfortunately if it's anything like the workplace I work in - they are probably also expecting PCS/FDA reps (which make up less 1% of membership) to work miracles to stop it from happening without taking any direct action themselves.
@08.58
ReplyDelete"You have missed the point entirely. It's not whether HMRC are fearful - the fact is that I do not fear HMRC".
Sorry, I thought you spoke about " Kicking them in the teeth" and "slapping them up".
So, basically, you are accomplishing this by .....answering their letters with venom. I bet they feel well "slapped up" Cock.
'You have missed the point entirely. It's not whether HMRC are fearful - the fact is that I do not fear HMRC.'
ReplyDelete7 May 2011 08:58
I use a very different Modus operandi when answering their (DCA's) computer operated threats.
I am spare,precise and entirely without emotion (like a cross between Spock and an Android.)
Since they do not even have the courtesy to sign with an individual's name to their unpleasant billet deux, I start my reply with: 'For the attention of an unfortunate who has apparently not been baptised', I end with: 'I believe this concludes our correspondence' I sign off as: 'Customer'
Childish? Most certainly.
Satisfying? You betcha sweet Aye-us!
I am also not afraid of them, they are toothless tigers, and, having beaten them in court once before (they wasted £2/300,000 of taxpayers' money on that little overzealous vendetta)I am disinclined to get my boxer shorts in a twist over letters which are riddled with spelling mistakes!!!
"Well HMRC got a real precedent making spanking with me.."
ReplyDeleteThis does not seem to be English as I understand it?
Possibly some kind of S&M allusion?
6 May 2011 23:17
The spanking (well, actually it was more of a 'thrashed within an inch of their lives') was metaphorical, however, if perchance you happen upon the excellent movie 'Personal services' you will see it happen quite literally.......(they are only (just) human, with carnal desires, after all).
Speeling mishtakes shurely shud knot coors za prooblem?
ReplyDeleteHMarsey iz shite, yeah?
Speelczech brocan, zorry itsa da Eye T, U nose, snot mi fourlt hat awl deer peeples.
:)
(Seal Team 6 Rools OK...
Come and get Excom someday!)
A necessary corrective to the original article:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/2011/05/06/tory-fucknut-watch-1-steve-baker/
I worked for HMRC for many years and I know exactly the sort of knobheads who post these defensive comments. I came across plenty of them. They are promoted because they lick arse and tow the party line, and can't cope at the coal face. And many will be graduate entrants with no experience of the real world. They will defend the indefensible if they think it makes them look "corporate". That said I have no arguement with the point that HMRC does a lot right and that many staff work damn hard. They are let down by those who will not tell it as it is and who give the Board some comfort that it is not all down to them when it is.
ReplyDeleteThe other twats are those that come in from the private sector like Lamebrain and the vanishing Varney. They have fucked up everything they touched and moved up the chain to better paid jobs, it would never have happened in the old days.
The organisation is fundamentally corrupt at the top and will be exposed as such because I honestly believe that the few good people that I know are there and in the right place will blow the whistle. They know the taxation treatment of some corporations and individuals is not right. This will be exposed.
Especially now Lamey and Strathie have threatened to punish people for telling the truth. Their latest message is "say we are great or get closed down" - a motivational masterstroke.
7 May 2011 12:51
ReplyDeleteYou are an idiot. If someone ignores threats, they dont go away do they? In fact, the matter gets worse because a non-response makes that person go into dishonour giving you chumps the excuse to send additional letters telling the person off like some child.
Well no - bollocks to HMRC and any attempt to talk to me like that.
The only option is to deal with letters of threat directly.
So, HMRC letters of threat (esp. unwarranted ones) are not venom? They are all sweet and rosy are they? Oh sorry, its all the fault of pacesetter right - or are you just 'following orders'?
@7 May 2011 20:02
ReplyDelete'7 May 2011 12:51
You are an idiot. If someone ignores threats, they dont go away do they? In fact, the matter gets worse because a non-response makes that person go into dishonour giving you chumps the excuse to send additional letters telling the person off like some child.'
Replying to their letters is an act of futility, especially if one does NOT owe any money, or has an arrangement/annulment.
They ignore the contents of any letter sent and reply with HMRC/DCA templates.
At £1.40 for a registered post, it can mount up to the point where one just has to stop answering the demands.
I am just interested to know where 'phase three' kicks in to bring (some unwarranted)demands to a conclusion.
7 May 2011 18:57
ReplyDeleteThats HMRC spot on.
Staff (before many of them left) who are/were honest, hard working, tried their best and then there are junior mangement types, (not all of them) who obviously arsed licked their way to those grades.
In 2005.once the chops were announced, you could see the arse licking went through the roof as if in some bizzare way it would save their necks when the cuts arrive.
I was in Cutoms/Excise and will never forget them running to make the Revenue managers their cups of tea in the morning or telling them the next day what time staff left the office at etc the day before.
A shower of shits, is too good a description for them.
@7 May 2011 20:52
ReplyDelete'arsed licked their way'
'arse licking went through the roof'
So, it is official----- HMRC have an in-house predilection for felching???
I suppose it makes the day go quicker......
Recent posts show a good grasp of reality in the 103rd. It is the worst of both worlds forced into 1 unwholesome mess.
ReplyDeleteCrap managers from both former departments, useless "imports" from the private sector.
A still unanswered load of questions from the Mapely sell-off, the Private Eye special report on this was a terrific example of well researched in-depth reporting.
Yes, most will agree, whistleblowing will lift the lid on this debacle once and for all.
perhaps an application of the Civil Service Code combined with common sense will do the job?
No, I doubt it, but one can live in hope.
You might not need a class action nor a whistleblower.
ReplyDeleteWith all the information and allegations and evidence out in the public domain you just need somebody in authority i.e. Government, to wake up and ask WTF is going on here chum? Then get Inspector Knacker of the Yard in there.
Any indepth unhindered investigation would leave the people undertaking it asking some simple questions about what part of the law of the land don't these idiots understand - and when you get to that stage the game will be up at long last.
Pacesetter won't help then, it will be like watching headless chickens.
All this was foretold when it became obvious that HMRC was a self regulating body with absolutely no accountability or conscience.
It is pathetic to read some of the posts trying to justify what has happened or blame it on the staff.
It must be time for Private Eye to do another expose' looking at previous posts.
BTW is this becoming a record posting, will Ken reach a century?
This blog has come full circle and I for one think the interest this has sparked needs action.
ReplyDeleteCone on Ken, how about collecting contact details of those with grievances caused by HMRC cock up's and co-ordinating this with the lawyer who one blogger says would act on a contigent basis?
What is needed is a judicial review and that can only be funded by a class action.
When I had precisely the same problem (shed loads of threatening letters)with British Gas, I emailed the C.E.O of Centrica (owner of British Gas)and received a reply within 15 minutes and my query was cc'd to the M.D of British Gas.
ReplyDeleteDid it stop the letters?.....er, NO, but at least when it goes to court (I have been 7 times to 'application for warrant of entry')I can show that I have tried my level best, right to the top of the food chain, to bring their questionable methods to book.
In British Gas's case, they are billing/demanding money with menaces.... for a meter which IS NOT MINE.
In HMRC's case, they are billing/demanding money with menaces for debt that I do not owe.
My question is this my fellow posters, to whom am I able to send a letter/email at the very top of the HMRC food chain?
Leslie Strathie. Or you could try the gov minister who is currently responsible David Gauke. It won't get you anywhere though unless you are a big company like BT, BP, Vodaphone. They seem to have ways of persuading senior figures to jump to the appropriate height as and when required.
ReplyDeleteTo Dame Leslie Straithie or LGD as referred to in earlier blogs on this site.
ReplyDeleteMind you going by the way she answers questions at Parliamentary Committee I would not expect a straight answer, assuming of course that your letter ever reaches her through the HMRC postal system.
Of course you could always write to the P.M.
I do like the idea of a Judicial Review open a fund, perhaps the first contribution should come from the PCS.
Below is from HMRC site for when one has a complaint:
ReplyDeleteWe will consider refunding you for any reasonable costs directly caused by our mistakes or unreasonable delays, such as:
* postage
* phone calls
* professional fees
You will need to tell us about these costs as soon as you can and keep any receipts as we may ask to see them.
If you think our actions have affected you particularly badly, causing you worry or distress, tell us straight away. In some cases we may be able to make a small payment to acknowledge this and apologise.
Well, yes, I HAVE been very badly affected (lost my business) and the worry and distress have manifested in chronic health problems.
However, as a worthless wretch who has encountered HMRC in the arena of a criminal court, I can tell you that they do NOT adhere to their own guidelines or their manuals, so, the above seems to my mind,:- a load of empty rhetoric.
They lie, move goals posts, and are VERY bad losers, therefore be warned, a battle with them is not for wimps.
"If you think our actions have affected you particularly badly, causing you worry or distress, tell us straight away. In some cases we may be able to make a small payment to acknowledge this and apologise."
ReplyDeleteAs the partner of an HMRC call centre advisor can I make a claim for all the support I have had to give them while they endure the working conditions?
@8 May 2011 15:20
ReplyDeleteI don't see why not.
This site is dedicated to the suffering at the hands of the megalomaniac juggernaut junta that is HMRC, be it 'customer', employee, partner of, etc.
The trouble is, most people have 'real lives' which leaves little time for a titanic struggle with a governmental department which is adept in the arcane art of DP (double penetration to the uninitiated!).
If they don't get you one way (pick orifice of choice) they get you (in) another.
**reaches for 'Gun Oil' the lubricant of champions***
"BTW is this becoming a record posting, will Ken reach a century?"
ReplyDeleteI doubt it. He is very much an agent provocateur for both sides and once he realises people are taking too much notice he will move on to something else to bash.
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" is the quote from the first posting on 6/5 @ 12:23.
ReplyDeleteIt would be a great injustice if no-one were brought to account over the HMRC mess.
From what I have read it would appear that not only have HMRC's "customers" had enough, the staff and various policticians appear to have had enough as well.
It looks as though fear of retribution by HMRC has been overtaken by a desire to get something constructive done.
The tame media are a bit of a waste of space and are not resilient enough when they trip over a good story. Someone mentioned Private Eye, they are usually on the ball and don't mind saying it as it is.
C'mon Ken be the catalyst, or are you already with this site?
They are a shambles once you get them in a court room: Ill prepared and mind bogglingly ignorant of basic TAX law!!!....and that is their 'expert witnesses'.
ReplyDeleteAs mentioned by a previous poster, they totally contradict their VERY OWN MANUALS (which I guess they need since they are incapable of original thought).
They are easy to take on,...the stumbling block of course is the MONEY it would take to launch an action. And of course the expanse of TIME (since they move at snail/tortoise-like pace).
Be prepared to set aside a good 3 years,- unless of course they take the 'customer' to court and then one could more easily and cheaply DEFEND the action.
As a starting point to anyone wanting to get the attention of the senior muppets at HMRC, below are some contact emails (you will never see these advertised on the website or given out by the helpline drones).
ReplyDeleteleslie.strathie@hmrc.gov.uk
chris.hopson@hmrc.gsi.gov.uk ; peter.michael@hmrc.gsi.gov.uk ; jane.frost@hmrc.gsi.gov.uk ; mike.shipp@hmrc.gsi.gov.uk ; simon.p.smith@hmrc.gsi.gov.uk ; bernadette.kenny@hmrc.gsi.gov.uk
Of course if you know the name of some other senior manager you can use the same format as above to contact them. It gets a response, but only from one of their lickspittals, but at least must annoy them and remind them that they are public servants and the 'customers' are not happy.
I think Bernadette Kenny went to pastures new after taking the rap for the PAYE debacle, but may still be there.
@ 8 May 2011 17:37
ReplyDeleteThat is most helpful, thank you!
I personally will start to compose my attention getting opus and cc to ALL of them, along with follow up letters to my nemesis DCA/M.P/Prime Minister AND to my legal team (princes among men I tell you)who were veritable flying buttresses when I was in need of pro bono help.
At the time, I was told by EXPERTS that it could not be done, yet justice prevailed, and my faith in the legal system was very much restored
A journey starting with a single step and all that.......
Ok, my email has just been sent to Ms Strathie et al.
ReplyDeleteI would offer to give you snippets of same, but, it would expose my identity.
Re 17:37 post
ReplyDeleteThe establishment is protected by the establishment including the legal system, tame media and politicians who are spineless.
If only there were more Michael Mansfield type characters about.
There is no doubt a groundswell of opinion rising ever higher and its momentum is guaranteed.
Justice is its own reward.
What are my learned friends views on Maladministration in public office?
ReplyDeleteIs there any milegage in it?
'Justice is its own reward.'
ReplyDelete@8 May 2011 20:03
Yes, I would have thought so, but flaying HMRC (in my court case) was a very hollow victory.
As bad losers (my lawyer warned me in his parting salvo)they went to work with a vengeance.
I cannot prove it, but mysteriously the head office of my managing agent was sent a copy of the newspaper article concering my case, and I was threatened with eviction (again, I cannot furnish you with details due to identity protection)...I was then threatened with a full scale investigation (which Nick Morgan who features on this site, would know all about)and now it seems,5 years later, I have to continue fighting.
Like the bloke said in 'Network'
I'M AS MAD AS HELL AND I AM NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANY MORE!!!!!!!
**'diminished responsibility M'Lud'**
Is HMRC and its management above the law?
ReplyDeleteNo, it isn't, it may think and behave like it is but the law applies to HMRC and its management.
making that law provide justice is a different issue.
From what has been posted for some time now it would appear that this department is totally out of control, quite frightening really.
Mad dogs get put down, any suggestions about what to do with HMRC and its management?
I'm only saying this to help get towards 100 comments.
ReplyDeleteNothing to contribute but want that magic number!
ReplyDeleteme too but in order to keep the thread on topic HMRC is Shite.
ReplyDelete'No, it isn't, it may think and behave like it is but the law applies to HMRC and its management.'
ReplyDelete@8 May 2011 21:22
Well said that fellow, and therein lies the rub,:- they do such a good job of strutting with their own self importance that the proles of this world believe it.
Not any more, I feel certain that a few posters will bring them to book.
Avanti......
I want to break HMRC's (century) hymen.
ReplyDeleteAs they say in Oz, 'Brace yerself Sheila'
(may there be much rejoicing in the streets)
Wow, congrats to one and all.
ReplyDeleteKen should have had a pacesetter award after all....
Breaking the ton is just reward to Ken and his band of readers/posters even the management supporting twats that crawl out occasionally add to the mix and motivate the rest of us to greater heights.
Wonder what the 103rd will contain?
This is getting interesting, what has occurred to lead to over a hundred posts?
ReplyDeleteThe Glorious 103rd will someday reap what they sow, until then I am afraid that the shite that is HMRC will continue unabated.
ReplyDeleteThe only trouble is it will get worde before it gets better.
Not a pleasant thought peeples.
Sorry dear readers....
ReplyDeleteFecking spellczech agin!
'This is getting interesting, what has occurred to lead to over a hundred posts?'
ReplyDelete@8 May 2011 22:25
I'll enlighten you pal.
Walking into the valley of death (with HMRC), is, like oral sex,..... dark and lonely work.
This thread has shown that there are more mortals suffering and intending (I hope) to take positive action, rather than, as is the very stoic British way, to MOAN about it!
I am very excited about it!!!
OK - what's the next step of progression then?
ReplyDeleteWhen you feel on your own and up to your chin in effluent its mighty hard to shout for help!
"HELP!"
Where's Batman when you need him?
Or should we get Gandalf to tackle the dark forces?
BTW I have just heard on BBC that public sector pay has risen faster
than private sector pay according to a right wing think tank. WTF!
I can't remember the last time we had a pay rise, which according to most sensible estimates means we have had effective pay cuts.
Green cheese on the moon snd HMRC acting responsibly next!
Presumably HMRC is acting upon legal advice that the Administration of Justice Act - Harassment of debtors - is of no application in relation to the debt recovery activities of their agents.
ReplyDeletePoliticians would reflect upon the ultimate wisdom of such an approach but there lies the problem: unlike other government departments there is no Minister to be held directly accountable for the actions of HMRC (nor it must be said would there be an eager queue for such a job...), hence the never ending debacles played out before the Public Accounts C'tee.
So continues the dull evil of a vast box ticking Bureacracy. It is run by academics/careerists devoid of any managerial skills attempting to run a hugely complex legislative and IT system for the sole benefit of the Treasury.
Wishing to stay on post...
ReplyDeleteHMRC does not just administer the direct and VAT taxation systems have a good look at some of its other responsibilities - importa & exports, export licensing?, copyright by default, H&S by default, excise and customs duties, trade statistics gathering & accuracy.
Now, if you are a cynic you may feel that besides the black holes of Corporation Tax, VAT, PAYE, Self Assessment and CIS there may be just a little bit more to the debacle than currently thought - you betcha!
As a former Collector Of Taxes who spent 10 years pounding the streets chasing tax arrears in the 1980s I am simply amazed at the crass threats that HMRC seem to dish out routinely to taxpayers nowdays. When I worked for the Inland Revenue 20 years ago I was taught that the art of collecting debts was to use politeness, patience and persistance. The aim was simply to collect what was legally due not to terrify or intimidate people. The courts and the bailiffs were reserved for habitual defaulters and were only invoked when the intention was to follow through with enforcement. Making pointless threats that you had no way or means of following up was seen as worse than useless since it just made the department appear impotent. Worse since HMRC are clearly now intent on bullying the weak while clearly not having the wherewithall to enforce compliance on those who intentionally default they are violating the fundamental principle that all taxpayers should be treated the same. The dpartment is clearly in ruins and needs to be rebuilt from the bottom up
ReplyDeleteRef.former HM Inspector of Taxes -
ReplyDeleteprobably one of the best and most coherent of posts I have seen. Its gets to the heart of the problem.
Well said Sir, or Madam!