The proposal, which is included among potential new sanctions to tackle tobacco duty evasion and other excise duty evasion, is "another example of HMRC pushing the burden of policing tax compliance onto businesses themselves", according to tax disputes expert Stuart Walsh of Pinsent Masons.
HMRC and the state will not be satisfied until we have become a nation of informers, feeding the state's insatiable need for cash derived from taxes and fines!
Tax does have to be taxing.
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ReplyDeleteLet them drink tea and coffee, eat cake and biscuits, and spend more time on luxury away days like their visits to Arsenal & Chelsea Football Clubs...oh, and we'll pay for all that too shall we!
That mob are farce!!!
This is a complete abrogation of responsibility under law and should be called out as such.
ReplyDeleteAre we to understand from this that the failure of such ruses as;
Trade MOU's,
Pressure on Police and Trading standards involving resources diverted from more serious priorities its a bit like invoking post-import controls by default because there are none at the borders),
Trading Standards employing tobacco dogs (WHY,FFS?!),
Inability to hit the problem at the border (chokepoint),
Failures of various HMRC resources e.g.,
Humint,
Overseas Fiscal Liaison Officers,
Hotlines and similar,
Expensive mobile 'Task Farce Squads' (aka 'The Goonies' by the bootleggers),
"Intelligence' Teams,
'Joined Up Working' against Organised Crime,
Millions spent on analytical systems and analysts,
Inability to 'join the dots'.
All have failed to such an extent that we are making it the responsibility of landlords?
What has happened since HMRC was created was predicted by many at the workface in C&E before the forced merger. Are the only people being prosecuted for Excise smuggling those brought to book by Trading Standards or Police?
Give the top level criminal work to the NCA and be done with it. Treat everything else as civil related and charge revenue where recoverable, stop messing about FFS!
I agree that top level criminal work should move from HMRC to the professional NCA or the police - they are held in high regard by the general public.
DeleteHMRC (as a disorganisation) are a untrustworthy bunch of amateur incompetents who should not be involved in investigations.
HMRC senior management never wanted to understand the challenges of customs and excise enforcement. They avoided it like the plague. disbanded what they could and hid the rest away under layers of bureaucy so that it couldn't function properly.
DeleteWhy would HMRC Senior Management care? It may sound a daft question to those uneducated about that lot, but really I mean so long as they're getting their fatcat pay packets, with bonuses inc., and climbing that SCS ladder, then I am sure they could not care less about such trivial issues (as they would see it).
DeleteYou clearly know jack shit about UK law enforcement if you think the NCA is an effective or professional organisation.
DeleteYea, woteva!
DeleteI know enough that if it were to come to a choice between HMRC (using investigators to catch 'low hanging fruit' that a couple of decades ago was the work of the EVO's) and the NCA especially when dealing with overlapping crganised crime groups and systems that cross discipline and have better humint and resources than the majority of LE, I would bet on the NCA any day. (SAR's being but one example).
So, yeah, I know Jack Shit about LE, but thats better than knowing fuck all about fuck nothing.
Lets delve into this cesspit and see what is lurking in there;
ReplyDeleteIf you wanted to open the doors wide for organised crime to have a field day, then creting HMRC was a good start,
Placing an incompetent public sector manager in charge of a number of frontier related departments in succession would underpin the foregoing,
Losing the vast experience of uniformed and 'plain clothes' C&E staff to early retirement, transfer to the failed NCIS or Border Farce continued to underpin things,
Organised Crime developed its abilities far quicker and more professionally than HMRC, or anyone else in Law Enforcement for that matter,
Ripping Off The Revenue was more lucrative than smuggling drugs, partly due to low street prices for the 'gear',
Many former C&E staff were very experienced at team working, identifying and catching smugglers and possessed what was known as 'The Revenue Nose',
Self directed work teams were the norm (tell us what you want done, now get out of the way while we do it),
A fair proportion of these staff had served at single officer stations where the nearest assistance would be a 999 call (of which many had to be made),
Most, not all, former Revenue staff were afraid of their own shadows and had difficulty deciding on what to have for lunch, challenging, confronting, arresting anyone let alone slapping cuffs on, charging people, and at times prosecuting miscreants was and still is a complete anathema to these people.
C&E was not all things rosy by any means but on the whole it was far more effective than its bigger sibling.
Organised Crime, from travellers (yea, that lot) through to those at the apex of the predator list know how easy it is to make £/$ by any method from moving an empty 40' container, said to contain high value goods, smuggling tobacco goods, fuel etc.
Good luck sorting that mess out!
Many interesting and accurate points made here. Liked the bit about 'The Revenue Nose' & 'get out of the way while we do it'. What you are talking about is hard-working, committed people working with initiative. Following the creation of HMRC nowadays such dedication is actively discouraged. You are more likely to be marked down and/or bullied for such positive traits. If you want to stay afloat or get on in HMRC now, and it doesn't matter how lazy or incompetent you are, creep around insecure feeling managers & massage their egos and make sure you have a 'Brown-Nose'.
DeleteRe Anon 22/02 @ 20:38 you refer to 'former Revenue staff' and say it 'still is a complete anathema to these people'.
DeleteWhat does that tell an observer, given IR & C&E merged to create the monster 12 years ago! Is it a failure to bring two different cultures together? Is there suspicion between the two groups? Whats happening with training former IR staff? Has there been no new staff recruited from outside in that long period?
As with all the problems, it would seem from afar to be a failure of HMRC senior management, to effectively manage, train & deploy their human resources.
Head, nail, on!
DeleteSorry, but some of you are insulting to the many HMC&E investigators that didn't go to SOCA-the investigators that did go were primarily those on the Drug Teams, (but some stayed with HMRC). The rest dealt with everything from VAT to tobacco and alcohol to Fuel to any other Cuatoms offences, and then had to take on IR work too.
ReplyDeleteSo HMRC investigators are no different from those at the NCA, and are professional. Perhaps the focus should be on the senior management as NCA and Border Force have their failings, little of which is attributed to those on the front line. Please get your fact right before you start sagging off those on the front line who are no doubt as sick of the way HMRC are going as the taxpayers.
Facts?
DeleteThe transfer of C&E staff to SOCA was also used as an opportunity to get rid of some deadwood by 'disposing' of some crap by overegging the assessments of their abilities. But you would have known that.
In addition, were there not a fair number of former IR 'Investigators' who either became HMRC Investigators or made the transition to SOCA as well? Of course, if these were of the calibre of those that could not land a case against a comedian, what do you expect?
Besided which, if C7E Investigators were as professional as you suggest I am sure the likes of London City Bond and the Simon De Danser cases would not have attracted so much negative criticism (plus a fair few other high profile cases).
So, yes, facts checked. thanks.
Sorry @19.03, but you are wrong. The majority of the HMC&E Drugs investigators went to SOCA, seeing as SOCA, led by Paul Evans (who went from head of HMC&E Investigations) had the remit for drugs investigations. SOCA also took on the Police's Regional Crime Teams (West Midlands included). Evans cherry picked not only staff but equipment too.
DeleteLondon City Bond was YEARS ago, well before HMRC and SOCA were formed. I investigators that became HMRC investigators weren't just given the job, they had to complete the training that all investigators have to undergo.
NCA professionalism shown here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12039206/National-Crime-Agency-to-review-350-cases-after-warrant-blunders.html
Lots of facts there too.
And there was me thinking that one of the constituent parts of SOCA/NCA was the NCS (National Crime Squad formed itself in 1998 from the 6 RCS/Regional Crime Squads), damn facts getting in the way of fiction again!
DeleteAs for drugs investigations, as quoted - Simon De Danser - it was the ACIO or head of the particular HMC&E NIS Branch that was referred to in Crown Court as an unreliable witness!
As for staff getting transferred on written up reports, it almost became public given the standard of some of those transferred.
Personally, I still believe it should not have ended in a predictable train wreck, and given some decent management at the very tops of the organisations concerned including the Home Office, we might not be playing catch-up after more that a decade of disasters.
350 cases reviewed would be overshadowed if the HMRC wheels ever come off and the skeletons fall out of the many cupboards filling warehouses.
All these disagreements I observe on here,between people who presumably work for hmrc,explains a lot.
DeleteIf they are always bickering,disagreeing and bullying each others its no wonder the service small businesses get is so crap.
The responsible for hmrc needs to get a grip of this and ask the senior leaders what on earth is going on.A complete unprofessional joke.
Facts,alterantive facts,propaganda,spin what an absolute mess it all is.
No, not bickering, just different points of view depending on ones perspective. Usually all are in the same ballpark and sharing similar concerns. Requires some reading between the lines at times, based on experiences and work areas and how proud you may have been to worked in certain areas for a certain once world class organisation that used to be highly respected by firend and yes, by foe at times.
DeleteAah, halcyon days, is that the dinner gong Chief, duty mess or officers mess? ;)
If you're rummaging it would have to be duty mess.
DeleteDifferent points of view are all part of healthy debate among those who were proud to serve.
DeleteHave to agree that there are issues with HMRC bullying its staff - it is often commented about publically and staff survey results (which have to be considered as a conservative estimate as to the real scale) demonstrate the degree of the problems.
The differing points of view don't translate into good decision making by HMRC Senior Management and hence HMRC fails to deliver.
I have also heard about the bullying. There's one particular "troll" on this site with a bad case of OCD who repeats it over and over again every day. He even replies to his own posts.
DeleteInteresting to read these comments-it's obvious that meddeling with HMC&E, the IR, the Police (National & Regional Crime Squads) and the Immigration Service has not progressed the halt to people fiddling their tax, smuggling fags and booze and drugs, and illegal immigration. Do any of these departments actually perform better than they did pre these mergers/rebranding/demergers?
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, debate is healthy and this is a site where I like reading the various views from those outside and those (seemingly) within the pit of despair of HMRC.
Don't think they perform better, certainly cost more, especially IT, training, corporate logo etc.
Delete